Nic Jones
Nigel Spencer said...
Dear "Lizardson",
Following conversations recently with Ralph Jordan, who was involved in producing Unearthed and who is a very good friend of Nic's, it is absolutely clear that Nic does not want Unearthed or In Search of... to be made available for free via your blog. Now, you may have a policy that you only remove albums if the artist themselves contacts you and grovels to you. If so, you need to tell me so I can pass your policy on to Nic. If you'll accept the word of third party, please remove these albums from your blog as a matter of urgency. They are NOT yours to give away.
Trusting you do the decent thing,
Nigel Spencer
Dear "Lizardson",
Following conversations recently with Ralph Jordan, who was involved in producing Unearthed and who is a very good friend of Nic's, it is absolutely clear that Nic does not want Unearthed or In Search of... to be made available for free via your blog. Now, you may have a policy that you only remove albums if the artist themselves contacts you and grovels to you. If so, you need to tell me so I can pass your policy on to Nic. If you'll accept the word of third party, please remove these albums from your blog as a matter of urgency. They are NOT yours to give away.
Trusting you do the decent thing,
Nigel Spencer
posted by Lizardson at 12:32 PM
20 Comments:
while I felt that posting the out of print Nic Jones LPs was more suitable for THTM I don't think it is fair to address Lizardson with the tone that Sir Nigal uses. If he had the least bit of familiarity with this most excellent and important of musical blogs he would know that there is absolutely no need to grovel for Lizardson to remove a recording. From my observation any hint that the artist himself does not approve and off it goes pronto!
This is a library of rare and important music by artists that are underrepresented by the corporations that run television and the radio and what Lizardson does deserves a medal rather then such harsh criticism.
There really was no need for this arrogant officiously toned message. I have home contact details for Nic Jones if Lizardson would like to contact him directly and find out if this self important twat really does speak for him. I happen to know several young people who would never even have heard of Nic Jones if it hadn't been for this blog, and they have all gone out and bought his albums as a result.
Some(many)people find it hard to accept that on the Internet nothing is 'yours' or 'mine'.And no, this is not a communism, just a (for the time being)Free World Wide Web, more and more suffering from attacks of the governments, corrupted 'law-givers' and their sponsors.
I echo the sentiments already expressed, I can't help feeling that if I were Nic Jones I would be embarrassed by the tone used on his belhaf. If Nic is happy with the tone, then I'm afraid it will allways colour the enjoyment of his excellent music.
This is a great site which is clearly done with passion.
Tom O'G
I am quite sure bluenorther that while Nic Jones might have indicated his preferance not to have the in print LPs available on this blog he did not project this smug manner. One only has to listen to his music to know that that is really unlikely. Why does this Nigal fellow address such letters to those who refuse to release Nic Jones early masterpieces? That would be more constructive I think.
Nigel -I read all your posts at all the Nic Jones bloggings here. Some are even ruder than this note was. You state a lot of things in categorical terms that are not supported with any kind of evidence, and frankly my own experience suggests the exact opposite of what you state.
Nic Jones has made revenue from me thanks to Lizardson. He would not have made any revenue from me had it not been for Lizardson. You don't recognize this, even though it was spelled out not just by me but by several other posters in previous posts at those same bloggings.
It is rare for me to buy an album based on a review, even with a track or two offered. The reason? Years of record company shennanigans where they'd release albums with 1 or 2 well done songs and a whole bunch of filler you never want to hear again. In my lifetime I've bought hundreds of those. I don't like it. So I want to know exactly what is being offered for sale. When you post the complete album, there is no question what it is. I am through with blind purchases.
So what's the end result? Well, here's what I categorically state. Nic has definitely made money from this blog, although currently there is no way to measure how much. Certainly, right on the surface is the problem that got you to write to Lizardson - a lot of people have a free album. However these are not longtime Nic Jones fans, they're not people who attended his concerts, and they are by and large not people who would have purchased the album. A very small percentage would have gone out on their own and purchased it. Yet, several did just that, thanks to the posting. I believe Nic's up in the game. More people know about him, AND, more people own his CDs than previously did. The side effect of some people actually listening to the music and simultaneously not buying the album - I don't believe it's as many as you seem to believe. Have you noticed how many albums are on this blog? Do you think every download gets heard more than once or twice if it's not grabing the listener, much as radio once did? There's a lot of competition here. It's a different way at looking at the musical market. I buy CDs all the time that I've found on blogs. Anything that finds itself in heavy rotation, off to Amazon or the artist's page or the label's web site I go.
Without a massive marketing push, how else are Nic's sales going to materialize? How is his fan base going to rejuvenate and remain strong after 25 years? It sure looks like Lizardson's efforts have created a lot of Nic Jones fans that would not exist, and that has resulted in sales.
I assume you are familiar with Radiohead's recent free album release. They understand why this is such a valuable strategy. It is quite different from the norm, I'll give you that, but given the massive changes in the music industry, why should it come as a surprise that there may be a better way than what has worked in the past?
I suggest you reconsider your treatment of Lizardson and also your way of thinking regarding music blogs.
Nevertheless, if it is Nic's wish that these particular albums are removed then I'm sure that Lizardson will "do the decent thing". All of us (well at least most of us) here respect Nic as an artist, understand his situation, want him to make a living that has been hampered by a certain record company, and wish him all the best.
Newelectricmuse
I disagreed with the posting of Nic's available CDs and made my views felt from the word go. That said, I think Nigel's sanctimonious rant at Lizardson was not only uncalled for, it could easily have been counter-productive. A lot of people who run blogs would simply have said 'screw you, you arrogant ponce' and left the post there. Lizardson, thankfully, didn't rise to the bait. He, unlike some people, has good manners.
Hmm, am I the only person not to see much wrong in Nigel's request or tone? True, he may not be familiar with Lizardson's blog or his great reasonableness when asked to take down a recording, but that's hardly a criticism. True, his request was firm in tone rather than chummy or grovelling, but was far less rude than some of the responses posted here -- and, if Nigel in some way represents Nic's interests (I'm not clear what his relationship is to Nic) -- then he is justified in his direct approach and, indeed, in being pissed off at the free availability of the current recordings. True, there are widely different interpretations of the effects of free downloads on "legitimate" sales, but that doesn't invalidate the artist's, or his representative's, belief that it's not OK to post the artist's recording for free.
Respect to all.
Considering this self important 'person', is relaying not from Nic himself, but from, if believed; a third party, then I say it should be ignored.
From my own perspective, I had a extremely comprehensive collection of folk & traditional music which through fire was lost, because of deletions/out of print this is the only way i could recover even a small percentage of what was destroyed. I have where possible repurchased as much as is available.
This site and others are helping fill in the blanks for true afficionados.
Let Nic be the arbiter of what or what cannot be offered for free.
Because of Nic's history this will be an emotive topic in his case.
I agree Nic's situation is an emotional subject for a lot of people and I see the point about these newest releases. The message about blogs being useful to artists, not evil, is loud and clear. But I would not like a blog to post new, unrecouped releases, or something like this where the artist is still alive but can't even go out and play a gig, while most of his earlier records are unavailable.
If an artists or copyright holder asserts that their material should be removed, it should happen right away no matter what.
Hoping eventually that seeing the value of these blogs will help neutralize any anger on the part of artists. But yes, I hope these links are removed.
Sad to say, there is too much expense involved in fighting these "take down" demands. Even if the person making the demand can't be verified as a genuine representative of the copyright holder, the law is very difficult to fight against.
To resist would be to risk the future of Lizardson's entire website, and who wants to do that?
I read recently that many of the record company executives are older, and not very aware of the potential in the Internet. All we can do is try to educate these people.
Their product is expensive enough that many music lovers do not want to (or can not afford to) buy an album just to see if they like it. The 30 second samples on the web dealers' pages help a little, but they are not definitive.
A download will never be the same as a CD. The sound is usually not as good. The visual elements are poor. There is no booklet text. Who would rather have a download? But it is an excellent way to discover new artists with little financial risk!
So, I must echo the sentiments of the second poster here. I have bought MORE CDs since I have been reading this blog, not fewer! And some of them are CDs that I would not have bought, if I had not discovered them here.
Yes, I do buy the CDs that I have downloaded, when I find that I like them. (If I don't, I erase them from the computer.) It is the fair thing to do, and also, as I said, it is still better to really have the CD in hand.
So, record company people, think! Your loss of sales is not because of downloads. There are many reasons, but certainly one is that the music you advertise and want to sell is just not very good.
You must understand that downloads will HELP your sales, not hurt them. So, be careful what you ask for!
To Nigel Spencer:
Go to hell.
Due to his awful tone, and complete disregard for everyone on this forum, I will never buy another Nic Jones album ever. He has turned me off forever.
To Nigel Spencer:
You attitude will do more harm to Nic Jones' career than any blog ever could.
As I said at the time I don't agree with uploading the 'new' Nic Jones albums.
The 'lost' albums are a different issue but the 'new' ones are an important source of income for Nic.
I know the 'blogs lead to sales' argument and sure there's some truth in that but this is Nic's property we're discussing here.
I also know, for a fact, that Julia, Nic's wife/manager is not in favour of the 'new' albums being available free on-line.
Roger
To 'anonymous'...
The blog can stand a little disrespect. It would be very depressing if you stopped buying Nic's albums just because some guy sent a patronising email. Peronally I hope Nic sells a heap of CDs as a result of all this. Same goes for Vin Garbutt and Harvey Andrews. That would be the best way to show support - both for THTM and the artists represented here.
all this proves one thing -- we need a new means of using the 'net for both the copyrightholder and the consumer. i just don't understand why we just embrace the web for what it is and what it provides. my personal view is that the copyrightholders should put all of their stuff on a mega-library akin to the archive.org. folks download to their hearts content but the isp charge a surcharge of $ / gig downloaded. the librry coul have tags for each unit byte downloaded per artists and that and agreed to forumla would split that surcharge btwn the isp, the artist and whoever else. the beauty of this is that now you have untold millions accessing stuff which would allow for a rather low unit rate per gig downloaded but in all overall numbers, the volume would be substantial imho.
The future of the music is on line but I respect Nic Jones and his royaltes, if you search for Penguin Eggs I have but now I don't want to upload...
If they don't like it they only have to kill the link.
In fact, if I was an artist, I would spend 10 minutes a day googling myself and killing the links.
However, inthe deserving case of Nic Jones, I say take it down, don't put it back up, and buy a copy of unearthed for someone for Christmas.
NB_ Get a few copies of Penguin Eggs IN the stores, on some of the "top 100 British album" lists, and then people MIGHT buy them?
Hint hint.
To Manilla:
Go fornicate yourself with an Iron stick. Maybe you can stand a little disrespect, but this blog doesn't desrve any. Maybe you need to find a little self respect.
all said but this:
"music is everybody's possession. it's only publishers who think that people own it."
(quote john lennon)
and, yes, i do realize the need to earn a living.
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